[Hugh Lowing:] Camera. And I let them slides in. Tom's got the slides here yet too, I think, somewhere. He parked them all that square. [Interviewer:] I need to rescan them all. The guy he paid to scan them, um, put them on a DVD, but there's no way of like, like emailing them to people, that sort of thing. So I want to re- re- uh, get a slide scanner so I can rescan them. And that way we can just, you know, you can do individual pictures if you want. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But, uh, [Hugh Lowing:] No, I- I think that's kind of a neat way to keep them. I had a heck of a lot more, but, uh, got lost in the fire, you know. In '72 we had that fire now. A lot of them got ruined. [Interviewer:] Do you know anything about the family Bible? When I was reading the family history book, I- I heard, uh, um, there was some references in there to a family Bible. Any idea where it is or? [Hugh Lowing:] Mother's got one. [Interviewer:] I mean, really old? [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, well, I- no, I don't know if that's the one they're talking about or not. [Interviewer:] Grandma's got one? [Hugh Lowing:] Mhm. [Interviewer:] I'll have to check into that. Because there's one that makes references when it talks about, um, William Lowing fighting in the Revolutionary War. And there were some notations made in the- the- in the family Bible. And I was like, well, I didn't know we had a family Bible. If we do, I'd like to, you know, scan it, take pictures of it, you know what I mean? So, that way there's just not one copy floating around. [Hugh Lowing:] Well, William, uh, well, ask Mother. She knows. But I thought that one come from her side of the family. That she's got, you know, and that's [Interviewer:] There's supposed to be one on the- on the Lowing side. I'm just, uh, you know, I see references to it, but I've never heard of it. [Hugh Lowing:] It could be. Yeah, and well, of course, we don't need to know whether my dad ended up with it. Maybe some of the other kids did. And- and my dad, and Dad, Mother, your dad got it, and Joyce, it's possible she's got it. But I don't know if it's in our family or not, really. [Interviewer:] We'll have to find out what happened to it, hopefully. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, because there's, well, how old would it be, you know? [Interviewer:] Uh, 18- well, actually 1700s, late 1700s, early 1800s. The earliest documentation we have so far is, uh, William Lowing's widow in like 1810, 1820 applied for a pension based on her- her husband's service during the Revolutionary War. And, um, she had to go and actually get testimony from like three people he had served with and, you know, some other, uh, uh, documentary proof. But that's the- the earliest tangible thing we have. Like, you know, there's supposedly in Danby, Vermont there's some, uh, [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, yeah. [Interviewer:] Some paperwork, you know, like county taxes and stuff. [Hugh Lowing:] Well, that could be in any of the families back there, then, you know, because see, my dad was born in 60- '87. So, it would have been the generation [Interviewer:] Before that. [Hugh Lowing:] Before that, anyway. And then there was quite a few kids in that. Who ended up with it there, you know? I don't know. [Interviewer:] Hopefully we'll stumble across it. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. [Interviewer:] All right, let's get back to kids. Uh, so you ended up having six kids. Um, a bunch of boys at first. Uh, what- was there dismay that you kept having boys and you weren't going to have a girl or? [Hugh Lowing:] Well, after we didn't think we would. [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] No, I- we just- just had boys. Like, this is, yeah, we could- could quit about that time. See, Ruth was conceived over Atlanta, Georgia, or Atlanta, Dairy Convention, Atlantic City. [Interviewer:] Atlantic City, really? [Hugh Lowing:] That's where she was born. [Interviewer:] Oh, what kind of convention? [Hugh Lowing:] Dairy Convention. [Interviewer:] Dairy Convention? [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, we had them every year. And that's the only vacation we got, really. We'd go, uh, one year to McCormick Place in Chicago, and the other year up to Atlantic City. And them days they were- it was the second biggest convention in the area at that time. The road builders were bigger than we were, and then we was the second, the dairy. There's a lot of dairies, you know. There was 57 dairies back when I bought Dad out in Grand Rapids. And they'd be telling them the same thing. See, all the Hollanders, or most of them around Michigan here, they, uh, come from the Netherlands, and that was the great dairy state in the Netherlands, you know, always was. And they'd come over here and they knew that trade. So if they lived in Grand Rapids, they'd start a little dairy and get the customers a few blocks around them. And that's how they started their dairy. [Interviewer:] Oh, that's interesting. Now, who made the cheese? Now, is that- is that just part and parcel of making a dairy, or are there only like, you know, like [Hugh Lowing:] Made what? [Interviewer:] A few chee- like cheese and other products, you know, cottage cheese, you know? [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, yeah. We made our own. We made our own cottage cheese. Yeah, cottage cheese, uh, hard cheese. Usually, no, we- we even involved that Kraft, or the big cheese company, but they, uh, they didn't really make that- they didn't have the right equipment and everything. But cottage cheese, I got mine for a long time from East End Creamery. They had good cottage cheese. They, uh, and boys were living there too. I seen them here a while back. It was Van Olsburg's. See, every year that Biles was- had a dairy in the north end, he's- he started, uh, collecting the antique dairy stuff. He's got a cottage up on, uh, Lake East of Rockford. And I can't think of the name of it. [Interviewer:] Bear Lake? [Hugh Lowing:] Mhm. [Interviewer:] Bear Lake? [Hugh Lowing:] No. [Interviewer:] No. [Hugh Lowing:] East of Rockford. I don't know what the name of it. Tom will have to tell me last year. Every year in September we go up there. He calls all the old dairymen in, you know, and they go up there and shoot the breeze, and he's had a big ice cream or something there. No drinks or nothing. They're all Hollanders, you know. [Interviewer:] But that's all right. [Hugh Lowing:] But he's got an old wagon there that they delivered milk with, bottles. He's got, oh man, what a collection. And they was asking me, and I give a few things. They got a few pictures and stuff that we had. And, uh, it's nice. I guess I have to heard on Meyer's, uh, where it was at from on the bike quite a little bit from, because they got Meyer's Gardens. You've been around Grand Rapids, you know what it is? [Interviewer:] No. [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, that's a beautiful place. That's the Meyer's family farm. And of course, he's making oodles of money now, you know. [Interviewer:] Oh, yeah. [Hugh Lowing:] Store in every state. But, uh, and he got the old house that his wife from the great- been a neighbor there. That's where she lived. And, uh, they're making the children's old deal, animals and stuff. [Interviewer:] Petting zoo and [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, kids going out. I don't know if it's all done yet, but, oh, you enjoy it. It- it is a nice place. And then he wanted to get all his dairy stuff, and then they got the building out back, and he wanted to set up an old dairy in there, you know, just the way it was. All the equipment and everything. And Biles has got- they got it. I guess he'd sell it if you give him any money, you know. We don't blame him. Hell, he's getting old there. [Interviewer:] Somebody's got to pick up the, uh, torch, I guess. [Hugh Lowing:] Huh? [Interviewer:] Somebody's got to pick up the torch and keep it going. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. Yeah, it's- whatever. And I- I haven't heard now if anything happened more happening about it or not, but, uh, yeah, you get to Grand Rapids, you ought to go through that Meyer Gardens. They got old different temperatures. I don't know if you've ever been in any of them. Where they got a desert type, or, uh, you know, it's all [Interviewer:] Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. Climate controlled, uh, uh, holding areas for different animals. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, you get another room there, big room with a jungle, you know, all that kind of Yeah. stuff. It's, uh, yeah, I like that. And they got statues all over. That's kind of crazy, I think. We went on the tour one time. See, Bruce worked, or Dave worked out there a lot, making movies and pictures and stuff. And he'd get free tickets. So, we'd go out there and see it. And they give you a tour of all them damn statues. I didn't care for them, but, uh, it was nice. [Interviewer:] You ever bummed out none of your kids turned into- grew up to be, uh, dairy farmers? [Hugh Lowing:] No. [Interviewer:] You ever think twice about it, you know, family legacy, uh? [Hugh Lowing:] The one that wanted it the worst was Ruth. [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] She said, well, I didn't know until after I sold it that she's got that. I wish I'd have known. I'd like to bought that, she said. She really had honor. She'd have been all right. I bet she could have managed it. But at that time it was a- it was a dying business. [Interviewer:] Writing was on the wall. It definitely, you know, big businesses. [Hugh Lowing:] That's right. And you know, I didn't encourage any of them going in it, because, uh, well, your dad, I even used to went up to college up to Ferris. And Bruce, he went to college, and Dave, he went to Grand Valley. Of course, the girls both got knocked up pretty young. They got married. So, uh, they didn't go. I would have put them- I offered them all. [Interviewer:] Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a real big deal in our family, you know. There aren't too many that end up going to college for whatever reason. [Hugh Lowing:] No, your dad just went to short courses, I guess, you know. Which, it was good, you know. He succeeded, whatever he did. [Interviewer:] Yeah, what he was saying, uh, was it yesterday, somebody he worked for for a while that was kind of the- the motivator for him to go to college? [Hugh Lowing:] Well, I- I don't know if he'll ever admit it or not, but see, when I, uh, one of them that got out of high school right the year they was going to graduate, they were going to go in business on my place. I had that little red barn. It was going to be he and Ernie. You remember- you know he talks about this Ernie all the time. And, uh, [Interviewer:] Glenn? [Hugh Lowing:] What's that? Glenn, what's his name? I don't know. [Interviewer:] Bleeker? [Hugh Lowing:] No. No. There was four kids. About the same age, and they were friends in school. So they thought set up a grad business out in my little red barn there in the back. Oh God, they had a telephone in there, and they had them statements made up and all that. Them days kids at that age, they're car crazy, you know, all of them. They want to fix cars. Nowadays, hell, they can't even work on your cars. You got to take them into the [Interviewer:] Disposable, pretty much, yeah. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. But that's what they did. And I- I talked the kids into it. I says, well, one of them, see, uh, this fall, I'll take you up to Big Rapids to orientation. And, uh, if you want to go into car business, at least you'll have a little education and learn about it, you know. And well, it was kind of a job, but I- I took them all up there, and they- they agreed to do it. And they all went there, and through that, and the people up there, you know, they're pretty smart, those professors and that. And they, uh, they talked the kids into what trade they thought that they would be suited for. The way I understand it. Now, you might get different versions from Tom. I don't know. But anyway, that's what happened. And he, uh, of course, they got him in heating and air conditioning. [Interviewer:] And he did pretty well at that. [Hugh Lowing:] Yes, that's what I mean. And this Ernie, as you knew, he went tooling die. Shit, he didn't do bad either. He's in good shape. You know, and if you ever- has he come down when you've been there when he's here? [Interviewer:] No. [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, he's doing good. And this, uh, oh, the other one was Jerry. That one pretty tired that comes here and worked for Nissan. [Interviewer:] Oh, yeah. Yeah, Dad was, yeah, that was telling about it- him. [Hugh Lowing:] I don't know what course he took, but he did well. [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] Boy, he's retired. But this, uh, Glenn- Glenn Miller. He, uh, they set him up in body work. Which has been a good trade, you know. A lot of body shops around, but he got a- kind of got him. [Interviewer:] Yeah, well. [Hugh Lowing:] And he- he didn't mind much, but your dad set him up in the business he's got now, heating and air conditioning. At the time he give him all the Monkey Ward and Sears Robot business he had then. He was growing, and it was kind of a nuisance more, and I think he does it today, and I don't know. But, uh, otherwise them kids, all four of them, did good. Now, that what I did was the reason, I don't know. They all might have a different version, but I remember taking them up there. [Interviewer:] Mhm. [Hugh Lowing:] That orientation. So, um, that's what they set up. So when you were going to high school, it was sort of an optional thing. You kind of wanted to, if you wanted to, you kind of had to do the extra work, or what? Otherwise you were doing work- labor or? [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, when I was in high school? [Interviewer:] Yeah, was it mandatory back then, or was it just kind of? [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, we all had to- yeah, we had to work on the farm. And in the dairy, oh man, you had- I had a lot of that work in that. I see, that's why we had a car. We leave about five minutes to eight in the morning, and quarter after three in the afternoon you better be home. My old man is going to get to work, you know, because we had a car to take you. But, uh, and that's why I never went out for sports my first two years, and I wanted to. And I talked Dad into it. The last two years I go out for football. I did. [Interviewer:] Pretty good? [Hugh Lowing:] Good team. We won every game at it. That first year, except Lee High, they tied us. And our coaches offered to play it off, but the school boards wouldn't let us do it, I guess. [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, we did. We did good. But then I had the only car, I and Howard, we took the players all over, you know. Where the course at. Probably the swim was Allegan and Rockford. Why did we didn't go that far. So what, uh, what memories do you have, you know, each of, uh, each of your children being born? I mean, uh, you know, was that a big, uh, you know, obviously big- big events in your life, you know? What are the- what are the big benchmarks, you know? When you look back and say, you know, what are the big things that happened, you know? [Hugh Lowing:] Our kids and all that, that wasn't too big for me. I think, uh, when Bruce was born, I think my dad took her to the hospital. I was working. I was running around, you know. And then when your dad- that's when Bruce was born, your dad was born, I think her dad took her to the hospital. I didn't even go. And then I think maybe it was Rick I did. Mother had kids- didn't wait too long. She had them right away. [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] But, uh, I think it was him when in the hospital. I come in. Somebody took her too, because I come in later. She ain't had it yet. And I was in there about five minutes, and they got five guys standing around there. Some of them been there for hours and hours waiting for their wife to have a kid. And the nurse come in with a little baby, and they all jumped up, and I said, you guys sit down. That's mine. [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] It was too. [Interviewer:] You're on the express plan. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, I guess so. [Interviewer:] So how did Uncle Rick wind up doing heating and air conditioning? [Hugh Lowing:] Well, I guess pretty much with Tom. [Interviewer:] What did he do before that? [Hugh Lowing:] He was a welder. He's been a welder. Yeah, and he worked in the welding shop, and of course, Rick was a good mechanic and anything. Shit, he could weld what other people couldn't, aluminum and, you know, a lot of that stuff. And, uh, yeah, he was good. But, uh, when Tom broke up the, uh, the business [Interviewer:] Stegmeier? [Hugh Lowing:] Well, yeah, he didn't want service. And he owned Lowing Enterprises just because he got into these apartments and stuff, and he just took that as all. So, because Stegmeier, man, they were big on service, you know. [Interviewer:] Yeah, right. [Hugh Lowing:] And so, uh, Rick took that over. And your dad took over the other business. Rick had it for a while, but Rick was different than he and Tom. He wasn't a businessman. Tom had- Tom's a damn good businessman. And between he and your mother, they were a good pair, because your mother's a- like Tom, you know. He's like all my kids. Money never- didn't never worried about money. [Interviewer:] Yeah, didn't worry about money. [Hugh Lowing:] No, he never does, did he? He- that is he's pretty loose with it, you know, but but I think Shirley is the one that [Interviewer:] Did the books, figured out the accounting in the background to make things work. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, she could learn it. Tom couldn't learn it. But and that was the same with Bruce. Christ, he could earn money, but you heard me tell him that he never collected it. He should have had well, but he just never- never worried about money. [Interviewer:] So how did Bruce wind up doing- doing, you know, uh, uh, engineering work or for the government? [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, well. He had my eye. He was going to go to college. And he wanted to go to electrical engineering then. Now it's electronical engineering right later, but during, but he wanted to go to electrical engineering. So we went up to the Ferris and, uh, he got in all right. But then we went back to school, and Bill he had a buddy that Yokum his name was, and he went with him up there when they went to first sign up. The heck was the name of that, uh, the school counselor, you know, that tell them what they should do and what they shouldn't do, or what they're [Interviewer:] Yeah. [Interviewer:] Meanwhile, whoever's giving you that advice is a school counselor. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. [Interviewer:] Yeah. But anyway, he, uh, he went up there, and he said told Bruce, he says, no need in you going. You'll never cut that college up there. On Yokum, he said he'd be- he'll- he'll probably do it. And Bruce wasn't a student in college, really. But, uh, and that was a tough one. That was all male school back them days, you know, and boy, it was the toughest engineering school in the country. But, uh, he determined to go. He wanted to go. So we did. Paid his way and everything. And he was there. It took him five years to get through, but it was rough. But that Yokum kid, he- he flunked out. But Bruce worked hard. He made up his mind he wanted to go, and he did. He- it took him five years, like I say, to get in through. But then he went over to work for the, you know, for Mammoth for the- like civil service. Then they sent him to school. And he graduated, uh, there's a big college off east. No sports or no nothing, you know the name. I can never remember the name of it. [Interviewer:] Down east? [Hugh Lowing:] Never hear much of it because there's no sports. But it's a well-known school. [Interviewer:] Is it William and Mary, is it? [Hugh Lowing:] Could be. Well, they got sports now, but [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, it didn't- no, it don't sound like that's it, but, uh, well-known school. But anyway, we went out there, and he graduated with this cum laude or something like that. [Interviewer:] Yeah, with honors, yeah. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. Yeah, and it's when he graduated. So, and he- he got did darn good after it. You know, he all of a sudden he liked it, I guess. [Interviewer:] Yeah. [Hugh Lowing:] And he did it. [Interviewer:] So you're saying he won, uh, at one point he won an award signed by President Kennedy. He was the youngest GS-15 in the history of civil service or something like that? [Hugh Lowing:] Right. That's what it is in the civil service. See, a male guy and all that, they're all five or six or something like that. And the G-15 is up pretty high in that. [Interviewer:] Oh, right. Still is, yeah, that's [Hugh Lowing:] And tell me it's a lieutenant colonel in the service. And that's E, I guess. I need a G. I guess it's something. I think that's [Interviewer:] Yeah, they got, well, manual labor is- is wage grade, WG. And, uh, then they got GS, which is, uh, general service or something like that. But GS-15, yes, that's, yeah, that's the people that sit at the top of a department and, you know, yeah. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, that's it. [Interviewer:] That's big. [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, for quite a few years. He had to go out every year to recruit. You know, he'd go to colleges, you know, and talk to them. All them kids that tried to recruit them to go and work the route that he did and that. I suppose a lot of them did. But he- he is a sharp kid. He's during- I guess I told you during the Vietnam War, he had to go and the- the Pentagon talked to the generals every Monday morning. [Interviewer:] So he had to be in there for the briefing to brief them on. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. Yeah. And they give their little speech what's going on. He was in charge of all communications over there, see. And, uh, [Interviewer:] Fort Mammoth then? [Hugh Lowing:] Mhm. [Interviewer:] Fort Mammoth or what was the name of that? [Hugh Lowing:] Well, yeah, but the Vietnam War. [Interviewer:] Vietnam War. [Hugh Lowing:] Too. Yeah, he was in charge of them. When he got over to, uh, uh, well, on the Mississippi River there, what was it over there? He, uh, he had these big howitzers, guns. These great big ones, you know. Well, they had to brace them in the back there, and they shoot them. And he had charge of a lot of them. During- during Desert Storm and that, they used them. [Interviewer:] Yeah, they still use them now. In fact, uh, they were using them for like setting off avalanches out west, and they pulled them out of that. I guess the national- some of the National Guards had lent them to ski resorts to set off avalanches. [Hugh Lowing:] Oh, yeah. [Interviewer:] And they- they pulled them back because they needed them. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, yeah. That could be. [Interviewer:] Some of that equipment back. You can't really replace, you know. They really knew how to make things back in the day. [Hugh Lowing:] Well, that's Bruce. He can tell you some stories on that if you would. He never told us much. All we know is what we found bits and pieces, because, uh, [Interviewer:] A lot of it's probably classified. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, it- it probably was, you know. To get him in and that civil service, he had, uh, oh God, they had some security. We had people over to the house there was checking on his background. [Interviewer:] Background investigation. And they still do that now, like every five years. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. Yeah. All right, later. [Interviewer:] So, uh, and Ruth, uh, you know, what, um, what do you remember of her as a child? [Hugh Lowing:] Well, [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] I would- I was the- ever since she's born and all that, they can't say that she's the wrong kid. [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] I was going to run like the Nixon up, and I never heard. [Interviewer:] Did it feel like, like for me, I feel, um, like Cynthia, who's our daughter, you know, uh, is, uh, like twice as much work as- as any of the boys have been, because, you know, [Hugh Lowing:] Girls, Mother's often said she'd rather had two more boys than them girls. Four boys and that's work than two girls. And they turned out real good, our girls. Beth was the worst. She was a catty little kid. [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] Wanting and demanded everything, you know, certain thing. I got a kick out of it, because then she married that rabbi, you know, and he never had a pot to piss in, and she worked hard, and he's pretty conservative. But home she had to have a special butternut bread, I remember, always had. And that was a better bread in them days. I don't know what it is today, but, uh, [Interviewer:] It's all commodity at this point. [Hugh Lowing:] And that she demanded certain thing. And but Ruth, uh, too, which she was- she was a good girl. I graduated. Of course, too bad she got knocked up young. She went to school, but they used to have a tutor come to our place, and she got through high school. But they, uh, you know, they [Interviewer:] Oh, they don't let them in high school when they get pregnant, right? Back then? [Hugh Lowing:] No. Mhm. Well, they sent a tutor over. But- but Ruth, she did real well. She, uh, started, well, first job she had was at Jenison School. She had charge of all the insurance in the office there. Then she got into Bell Telephone. And she was with them. And she just advanced and studied and whatever she could. She's going up. She's studying right now for another advancement, you know. And she- she does real well. She- she married this guy. Everyone she's married, you know, she did better than I did. That's why. That day then, he just the fact she worked for him. She was so far ahead of him that, and that one kid that where she worked down in Lansing in the telephone company too, they were both the same, and she kept advancing and advancing and going ahead. AT&T, I think. And, well, that could discourage a guy. Don't you wouldn't you imagine? [Interviewer:] Could. Could. Yeah, you know, you got a wife that's doing so much better than you were, and you were in [Interviewer:] Actually, I kind of like it, but, you know, if she actually does actually come to think of it. She's a- she's a chief in the Navy. She'll probably make senior chief in the year in the- within the year. But, yeah, I mean, I can see where, um, yeah, in the wrong [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah. [Interviewer:] Yeah. [Hugh Lowing:] Anyway, he left her and gone. And she raised the daughter, of course. But, uh, yeah, she- she went right up and did real well. Of course, now she's retired at once, you know. [Interviewer:] Yeah. [Hugh Lowing:] Now she's wanted to go back to work. She- she makes damn good money now. But she'll keep advancing. She designs now for all these big places. And I guess they must be awful short of help. They can't- can't get anybody to do that. It's a line of work that nobody does, I guess. [Interviewer:] Well, it takes, well, that and it takes a lot of analytical skill. [Hugh Lowing:] Yes. [Interviewer:] And- and- and not many people have that level of analytical skill. [Hugh Lowing:] Yeah, well, she does, since she orders all the equipment, and they have contractors that come in and install it. Just wherever she says it's got to go, and I get [Interviewer:] And if she- if, you know, if that's the per- that's like the person drawing the blueprint. If they hose it up there, then, you know, then when they, you know, if you buy the wrong equipment, you can't send it back. [Hugh Lowing:] No, no. No, I know. [Interviewer:] It's money spent. [Hugh Lowing:] No, she- she's been- a few times I know she told that the company said it was wrong, but she showed them where it was the right equipment, and they accepted it. But, uh, no, otherwise she, uh, I guess she did good, what I hear. She wanted some help here a while back. And, uh, she told her boss, she said, my God, she said, I'd like to have some help. I just can't do it. And they're way behind. She- she's worked on a salary, so, you know, she works a lot of hours, and she don't get paid for it. But, uh, boss says, I can see that, because I know you do. But she said, we- we can't hire anybody. We ain't got anybody in the organization. And Ruth knew a fellow was an installer, because they had them guys that come behind and install that was real sharp, and she's worked with him for quite a while up in the UP, one of the AT&T and that. And she says, I- I wish you'd give him a chance. He says, he's trying to advance himself all the time. And- and, uh, let him in there. And says, if there isn't full-time work, he'll go back to installing. And, uh, boss said, you think that'll really work? He said, well, I don't know, but I'd like to have you try it. He says, I think he's the type of guy that could would advance him up to get it. And I guess I asked her the other day how that guy's working now. He's doing wonderful. He's really picking it up fast and doing it. So, [Interviewer:] [laughs] [Hugh Lowing:] Well, they- they like her, that boss down there. [Interviewer:] So what's, uh, what's your definition of re- retirement? Have you seen that change over the years, you know? Like, uh, move from the '40s to the '50s to, I don't know. I, you know, I'm- I'm 36 now. I can't imagine retirement before 65, 70. [Hugh Lowing:] No, I- and I don't think you should, Trevor, unless you got another line to- to work you want to do. [Interviewer:] Right. [Hugh Lowing:] Because, you know, retirement is great if you got something to do. [Interviewer:] All right. [Hugh Lowing:] You know, if you're a fisherman, you can fish so much. You can golf so much. [Interviewer:] My dad does more work in retirement than I do working full-time. [Hugh Lowing:] That's right. You don't see him sitting around in an easy chair. No, sir. No, he- he goes and that's what's got to do. I did that for years, but now I'm getting up to age. Nobody wants me anymore. But, uh, I'm really glad your dad. I have to thank for it a lot. He hired me for quite a while there, you know, on his work. But I- I don't know. We had that little- I thought it would be rough, but we're doing all right. Uh, I retired. Well, I didn't know. What's what some kind